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Hi boys, we are working for an architecture competition and use kray for render.
It's exterior render of a portion of the city with garden.
My problem is a good and realistic render. Only for grass we have 70.000 istancing + 160.000 istancing for brushs + trees, car and other
Now testing the "simply exterior scene of jure" in depo area but for a big area the surface are problematic.
What's a good setup (linear? Gamma???....) for exterior ?? can post a floor surface!!! In my test it's all witout contrast and i don't know as quit from this problem. Hope in your help!! Thank's
Sorry but can't show image now but not are good image......

nico wrote:Hi boys, we are working for an architecture competition and use kray for render.
It's exterior render of a portion of the city with garden.
My problem is a good and realistic render. Only for grass we have 70.000 istancing + 160.000 istancing for brushs + trees, car and other
Now testing the "simply exterior scene of jure" in depo area but for a big area the surface are problematic.
What's a good setup (linear? Gamma???....) for exterior ?? can post a floor surface!!! In my test it's all witout contrast and i don't know as quit from this problem. Hope in your help!! Thank's
Sorry but can't show image now but not are good image......

I think linear/exponetial blending 20/80 % is good.
For grass and leafs You can use QMC 100/0 shader
Instancing is no problem - works perfect You are limited only by memory.
Resolution GI for exteriors 1 m
Nodes, Nodes, Nodes - I can not post yet my Nodes because they are not ready.
Exteriors need good surfacing and post process .
I have big hopes for new Physky in K3.0. I am not fan to use HDRi in exteriors - they bring bad colors. Imho the best light comes from pure light and this light offer only physical sky.
For exteriors we need update of Final Gathering means better sampling to forget unfortunately uncache trick . This will brings smooth GI on the leafs and fast renders.
Will try post in this topic up to end weekend something what will help a bit : basic exterior scene.

thank you janusz but 20/80% it's a big range!!! what's the different to 20 or 80?
1 tonemap linear?
2 tonemap exponential?
Quick Linear Workflow use it or not?

i've seee that instancing isn't a problem....kray it's very fast and i'm happy work so.
Exteriors need good surfacing and post process .
this is the problem, if you can share 1 surface for generic floor (without texture) to see your node type i can start from it!!

Will try post in this topic up to end weekend something what will help a bit : basic exterior scene.
thank you so much for answers!!!

I think that in most exterior scenes there is so much light available that you can brute force it.
In fact i played a little with a Maxwell demo and was blown away by the speed and quality.
On a side note I think Kray 3.0 should make it's material system similar to Maxwell. That is a few realistic basic materials
and everything other BSDF layers.Nodes would be handy but not top priority.I am also jealous of Maxwell's Physical sky
Lightwave physical sky is crap , Dponts much better , Kray 2 even better but still far away from the quality of Maxwell .
I don't know if it's due to the unbiased engine or due to a better implementation altogether (or both...) but Kray should
seriously improve it's physical sky .

CHRIS.PI3 wrote:I think that in most exterior scenes there is so much light available that you can brute force it.
In fact i played a little with a Maxwell demo and was blown away by the speed and quality.

You do not need Path Tracing for renders - this is just commercial action - the QUALITY comes not from Brute force but from Surfaces ,good light, design and skill.
Is no different between Brute Force and Final Gathering generally . Problem is only with sampling in Final Gathering because this is interpolation method - but Global Illumination formula is almost the same. Actually Maxwell is very, very slow - because this is Brute Force and must be slow is no way to make it faster and all the time will be much slower then Final Gathering. Perhaps in next 10 years everybody will forget Final Gathering and everywhere will be Brute Force.

On a side note I think Kray 3.0 should make it's material system similar to Maxwell. That is a few realistic basic materials

I saw some materials from Maxwell and they was sometimes very poor - except BSDF which make render very slow and very often is not necessary to use .
Problem with Maxwell also is too complicated physical materials for basic surfaces which should be more basic.

.I am also jealous of Maxwell's Physical sky
Lightwave physical sky is crap , Dponts much better , Kray 2 even better but still far away from the quality of Maxwell .

I have hopes with new physical Sky in K3.0 because this is very important for exteriors and speed up renders. Maxwell has almost the same as in Kray but system of rendering is better (Brute Force make perfect shadows and no errors in GI) + more physical surfaces.
Generally is very hard render exteriors, plants need very good surfacing and apparently kind of SSS (in V-ray they have very nice shader which "emulate" nicely SSS, I think this is something between real SSS and Translucency) With basic translucency transport of light in trees or grass is very poor and limited.

This what I like in Maxwell is control of light ...so after render You can easy control lights in scenes and exposure. But is one think which is not acceptable for me from Maxwell : The Speed

Janusz Biela wrote: You do not need Path Tracing for renders - this is just commercial action - the QUALITY comes not from Brute force but from Surfaces ,good light, design and skill.

You don't get it ,
I don't think Kray's target group are experts in lighting , surfacing and setting up render engines with 100s of pages of manuals ( I am talking Vray) just to show that it can be done.
I myself need an accurate and consistent surface system (that isn't trial and error that is).And btw i prefer waiting one night for a4 300dpi render than spending months discovering the sweet spot of another renderer (which is going to change in the next version).
Bear in mind that we are talking exteriors here (interiors and animation are another thing).

Janusz Biela wrote: Is no different between Brute Force and Final Gathering generally

read above , I know it's not different if you tweak it good (and long...)enough.

Janusz Biela wrote:Perhaps in next 10 years everybody will forget Final Gathering and everywhere will be Brute Force

keep that quote in mind...

Janusz Biela wrote:I saw some materials from Maxwell and they was sometimes very poor - except BSDF which make render very slow and very often is not necessary to use.

You 'll find bad materials everywhere.BSDF is universal , it is how real materials behave , I don't need a complex node diagram that's faster but different in logic for every different material.Most node surfaces i have seen are tailored to a certain result (nice fast blurred reflections i.e.) and are therefore physically inaccurate for general use.If you want speed ,tweak the sampling , everything else is amateurish however complex it seems
(of course you can optimize the most frequent used materials and offer them as Material preset or node or whatever)

Janusz Biela wrote:This what I like in Maxwell is control of light ...so after render You can easy control lights in scenes and exposure. But is one think which is not acceptable for me from Maxwell : The Speed

Well , control of light is a gimmick which is nice , but still an extra you can live without.
Grass is awesome though...
Speed is acceptable for exteriors.

Don't get me wrong , I 've seen your renders and know what you can do with Kray and I love Kray but since Kray is on a changing phase I think another perspective would be useful... and I know you can influence the changes which are being made ] Is no different between Brute Force and Final Gathering generally[/quote]
read above , I know it's not different if you tweak it good (and long...)enough.

[quote=

The biggest problem with Kray is: You need to know a lot to achieve "something". Only what you get positive is speed time render. So now is two choices:

- to use Kray and spend a lot time for digging in manual and learn a lot of different stuff - kind of pain knowledge path
or
- use Maxwell or Octane press button and wait

But from my side for those which doesn`t know what to choice: this both , let`s say paths are good up to one threshold level, after that is only skill and experience...and is doesn`t matter what You use.....
Unfortunately or fortunately I chose the first.
But we want change it slowly in Kray 3.0. The new menu will be first sign of that.
During new functions I promise keep menu basic and easy for use and personally I want Kray the first easy software for render (because let`s say, even Octane can kill beginners in the beginning...)

janusz now i'm working with your last setup of grass scene (grass 3.0) and are a very goo look!!!

nico wrote:janusz now i'm working with your last setup of grass scene (grass 3.0) and are a very goo look!!!

Yes, there pretty much good setup.

lightwave3d wrote:

CHRIS.P13 wrote:
You don't get it ,
I don't think Kray's target group are experts in lighting , surfacing and setting up render engines with 100s of pages of manuals ( I am talking Vray) just to show that it can be done.
I myself need an accurate and consistent surface system (that isn't trial and error that is).And btw i prefer waiting one night for a4 300dpi render than spending months discovering the sweet spot of another renderer (which is going to change in the next version).
Bear in mind that we are talking exteriors here (interiors and animation are another thing).

?????????????? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we dont need 100 pages for manuals of kray cz easy to use.

listen guy . im not janusz oky. im his student. so let me give U small challenge give me any scn int/ext from vray pro lighting i will do the same lighting and render cheers with kray 2.5

and maxwell render janusz right its just comercial . for me Maxwell render crap engine render . u can do ur setup of surface as me in lw cz im usless on node . but i use texture map . and belive me its very good . i used maxwell try it . ex.... but i know he is usless u need workstation " one computer have 4 xeon 7560 X 1O to do render forget it .

and all thnx for my teatcher The janusz