Kitchen from FStorm

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Janusz Biela
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Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

This is not ready yet - so I will upload this later.
Example scene from nice FStorm render (GPU) Imported by me and remodeled for LW+Kray3.
Scene has only testing purpose.
Apparently I can not use Physky right now (reported bug with hot photons) so behind window are K3AreaLight and polygon background.
Also instead spherical light from ceiling lamp I had put Area Light.
1 million poly.

FStorm render 2xTitanium (lol that`s the piece of hardware) in 18 min:
FStormBenchMark_18min_2xTitan.jpg
K3 low settings without AA (I think better will be just to wait for new AA engine in K3.1):
K3_Low.png
K3_low_B.png
K3 high setting (after Anti aliasing should not be visible noise at all):
K3_high.png
Of course no shaders - only basic Nodes. No extra physical surfaces.

G. works now with new features and after that he will back to new bugs.

Meanwhile I test new system of shooting photons when small amount of photons is multiplied 100 times - it seems nice idea, because gradient of Photon Map is really smooth - so less errors for QMC samoling.
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Janusz Biela
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

Some extra technical renders done in 15 sec:
K3_VPR_QMC_C.jpg
K3_VPR_QMC_B.jpg
K3_VPR_QMC_15 sec_A.jpg
Precompute 300.000.000 photons of course in PhotonMap system:
K3_VPR_Precompute.jpg
thomas
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by thomas »

Very cool stuff!

Could you shed any light on what hardware you are using (e.g. price comparison of 2xTitanium cards vs. the processor you are using)? That would make the information about render times more meaningful!
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Janusz Biela
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

Titanium cards are very expensive (around 1000 Euro each) but still this is cheaper then Dual Xeons but is small problem: with GPU you can do ONLY two things: play games or render in Path Tracing, nothing else.
Personally for me: waste of money, overheating hardware (for two of that GPU`s you need over 1 kW power supply!), during rendering, operating system has lags (is not that bad but enough to disturb normal working), etc - solution only for "desperado's". Of course is a lot people/companies which use that solution but for me is better to have good Dual Xeon with minimum 64 Giga RAM and no limits with software (you can run everything) even if is much slower.
Anyway if you have card/cards with around 5000 CUDA Cores total, you can forget about it.

I use dual Xeons of my friend: 16core/32HT (around 4300pts in Cinebench R15). But for that I disable a couple of cores to achieve 2500 pts because this is the most common hardware now or even I simulate standard i7 CPU. You can consider speed CPU for all K3 renders here like 2500 pts

You can not compare GPU vs CPU. Completely different architecture and system render.
Of course for price 5000 Euro you can buy 4xtop GPU cards and render very fast - but if is so that "easy" solution why nobody does that?
thomas
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by thomas »

Hi Janusz!

Thanks! I completely agree with you about GPU vs CPU. I just wanted to get an idea of which hardware did the renders. I'm still at 800 in Cinebench :) so I always want to know how bad my PC compares!
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Janusz Biela
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

thomas wrote:Hi Janusz!

Thanks! I completely agree with you about GPU vs CPU. I just wanted to get an idea of which hardware did the renders. I'm still at 800 in Cinebench :) so I always want to know how bad my PC compares!
There is one solution for you: better CPU.
One of my friend just bought for his company Dual Xeon 72HT (reasonable price monster with over 4300 pts benchmark score!) and after 3 months :lol: :
http://www.kraytracing.com/phpBB3/viewt ... f=6&t=4828
http://www.kraytracing.com/phpBB3/viewt ... f=6&t=4871
http://www.kraytracing.com/phpBB3/viewt ... f=6&t=4827

Solution is simple: less waiting = more ideas.
Why I do not get "crazy" run to the GPU renders or Path Tracing because I am not willing make 2 renders/month.I can do in the same time 20 renders and check 100 ideas.
His renders has approximately 10-20 min/image for print resolution with this hardware.
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khan973
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by khan973 »

Hi Janusz, I think this article might give you another interesting point of view about GPU vs CPU.
http://www.ronenbekerman.com/unbaised-g ... -big-deal/

What I like with the idea of GPU is that your system is less oudated. If you need more powe, you just add more cards or newer ones, that's it.
With Cpu, you reach the maximum very quickly or you need to change your motherboars, power supply and so on.
When you have a company like me with many computers, it is very expensive to renew all the machines.
With Gpu, you can keep your system for a long time, maybe buy more RAM and power up machines by adding an external rig. It's very easy and scalable.
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Janusz Biela
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

khan973 wrote:Hi Janusz, I think this article might give you another interesting point of view about GPU vs CPU.
http://www.ronenbekerman.com/unbaised-g ... -big-deal/

What I like with the idea of GPU is that your system is less oudated. If you need more powe, you just add more cards or newer ones, that's it.
With Cpu, you reach the maximum very quickly or you need to change your motherboars, power supply and so on.
When you have a company like me with many computers, it is very expensive to renew all the machines.
With Gpu, you can keep your system for a long time, maybe buy more RAM and power up machines by adding an external rig. It's very easy and scalable.
...show me your renders done by GPU and time render + specification.
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Janusz Biela
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

Here is information for people who would like try GPU:
Studio images, product images, outdoor images are all examples of things that can go super fast with an unbiased GPU renderer. I’ve rendered product shots with heavy metal blend materials in 5000px resolution in less than 10 seconds, and I’ve rendered a city exterior in 5000px in just over 4 minutes.
Why this is true? He did not explain. But I will.
For render that scenes (basic studio/exterior) the amount of probability for calculations Global Illumination is almost 100%.
What it means probability in Global Illumination?
It means, amount of rays to receive clean Global Illumination (no noise) is very little. This is very close to raytracing! In these scenes (basic studio object) is nothing to calculate! Yes, people think is very fast but is not.

and here you have next true:
My render times on 4x GTX 980 ti, are usually between 2-4 hours in delivery-resolution per image, sometimes even more. Many shout out that my render times are too long, and that V-Ray could render it faster.
Why this also true? He did not explain. But I will.
This is same situation like above but with one major problem: same photons must make enormous amount of bounce light (hitting ceiling, after that wall, after that hitting table, etc) and in the end...nothing happen :!:
This "nothing happen" means: fail - photon did not finish "journey" to the camera. So render engine simple must repeat procedures to increase probability to hit camera. This is not that exactly because photons travel from camera to light sources - but general idea is the same.
Try throw coin to a glass from 10 meters and when you hit with success do it again with hitting wall and after glass. Your probability dramatically drops. What happen if you try hit first ceiling after that wall and in the last: glass. Mission impossible becouse you need whole day to get one success hit.
And this is job of GPU with Path Tracing.
GTX 980 ti = 11.264 CUDA cores. Common GPU now is around 500-800 Cuda cores, make the math with speed render....

Of course I would like have that hardware (4xGTX 980 ti) and small nuclear plant near. But I like CPU even if is slower.
Btw
I did not mention: without shaders he would render that great images.
here is override from GPU render:
14354921_10157639246580107_2190013457598381034_n.jpg
Do you see something extraordinary?
Franck
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Franck »

Hi Janusz,
We all know for months that you do not want to work with the GPU, OK what is said !
We all know that Kray is the best engine in the world and you're the one to master. Ok, this is said.
Me, what I say is that I just bought a completely unusable engine in the state and as usual, it's left with G did this, G will do that, G is now ...,
Oh ! I paid 190€ !
Now, when i'm going to have a render engine who work in production ?
Your answer will motivate my refund or not!
Thanks in advance
Franck
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Janusz Biela
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by Janusz Biela »

The GPU system render works in K3 but it is only by command procedures. G. will activate this later.
I send him mail right now with request what is his schedule. I think standard K2 level will be available next 1-3 months.
I would like to receive very fast working core because without this G. can not make next step.
In this moment I am in IDLE mode (I posted all bugs what I got after OB3 release)
There is no problem with refund at all - this request must go direct to:
gtanski@kraytracing.com
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khan973
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by khan973 »

Hey Janusz, I'm not starting a war of GPU vs CPU. I think the article is pretty fair on what is good or not for both systems.
I am for what works best for me, my company, artistically and business wise.
I have always relied on Kray for Archviz, sometimes it was awesome sometimes not so as an artist I love to have options.
GPU makes sense in terms of hardware renewal, scalability, saving money on licenses and so on.
It might not suit all needs and I don't only do Archviz so...
I'm longing to see the new version of Kray fully working!
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gtanski
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by gtanski »

About refund.

We have general rule, that there is no refund after download for simple reason. There is no way to verify that user have uninstalled Kray after refund. For those who want to evaluate, we have demo version.
There is no demo version for K3 yet, this is because there is no K3 final yet. There is a presale that gives two benefits for those who ordered it. Lower price and access to play with current beta. That is another reason for no K3 demo. If you preorder, you can play with latest build, if you don't you can't.

I wouldn't say that Kray is completly unstable at this stage, some quite complex scenes works fine, but of course you cannot count on it yet in production, since it can render wrong, too slow, or crash without any warning.

We have about 20 bugs reported now that are now waiting for fixing. Some critical (hangs or crashes). For sure there are still undetected and unreported problems. On the other side over 50 important problems already reported since OB1 and are now fixed in OB3. Most of problems are reported by Janusz. Its most convenient way now, since it avoids reporting same problem by many users. I can estimate how long it take to fix reported bugs, but I cannot estimate how many unknown yet problems are there. As number of problems detected and not fixed will get close to zero, we will open bugtracker for all Open Beta users, so problems missed by me and Janusz will be fixed too.

About GPU rendering.

I don't like to waste rendering time, so naturally is I want to use as many computing power as possible. Kray will definitly go for the GPU. Actually there is a lot of work done already and Kray is able to raytrace on GPU via OpenCL. Pure raytrace, this means no shading, just computing ray-geometry intersection (and you can test it even inside LW, but some comand line is needed advanced users can type "help gpgpu;" "help opencl;" "help raycast;" in Kray Commander inside LW and play with those commands) . It is too little for rendering anything, but from my point of view lots of problems are solved already. Mechanism for transfering geometry and raycache into GPU works and render hard core works too (ray-geometry intersection).

GPU support is not priority now for two reasons. One, we have bugs to fix and this is priority now. Two, I would like to implement shading and rendering algorithm in OpenCL 2.1 which allows compute kernels to be written in C++. This speeds up developement a lot and cost of future maintance. I choose OpenCL because its cross vendor standard and when for example you have GPU on motherboard + external graphics card it can utilize both of them and CPU in addition.
EDIT: OpenCL 2.1 is quite young and not well supported yet.

In CPU vs GPU discussion I will say I would like to have both supported. There are some tasks that works faster on GPU, but some different tasks are possible only on CPU. For global illumination scene with many bounces (interiors). CPUs flexibility and smarter rendering algorithms (reusing data, using aproximations) gives more benefits then GPUs brute force power. For brute force setups of simple lighting (not many light bounces) GPU will beat CPU.
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promity
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by promity »

Thank you for explanation!
thibault
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Re: Kitchen from FStorm

Post by thibault »

Yes, thank for your explanation ! Wait and see !
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