the new engine GPU come to life

[thomas]

I'll be honest: I really don't see anything impressive about the glossiness, glass or and reflections in the fstorm renders. If anything I think most renders look pretty bad. It's probably the artists fault, but I don't see where the enthousiasm comes from.

[Keraressi Abdelkarim]

I'll be honest: I really don't see anything impressive about the glossiness, glass or and reflections in the fstorm renders. If anything I think most renders look pretty bad. It's probably the artists fault, but I don't see where the enthousiasm comes from.

show me your render . really u think vray is not great ?!!i mean you relize what u just sayin ? vray is king iT learn if from janusz :3


so pls . i know kray as u know it or mybe better. but the issue im talkin about it about dev software. kray3took too many times still beta and we didnt see more about some small gi problem . in my opinion we didnt need kray3. if G. he took that nice kray2 awesome andhe add thos features itswill be super fast and easy. physky2 vpr ex..... and mybe he can make new AA and newBlurr calculation . and update gi . vray im sorry to tell u is a beast . we still dont have glass and some littel shaders in 2016 ?!! weare not in 1999 . man i dont knowif u can see what i see . thos days everything devloped super fast and everyone make progress G. need 3 or 4 programers work with hil in codding . we need Hyper fast update. cause if u have slow update or very very slow update engine fix bug ex.... the user will give it Up .its change whole workflow . its mean instead of kray render be more and more populare and famous he will go in the negatif direction . so i also see in evermotion or evenin big blog website for thos architecture visualisation and 3D rendering . they know : vray . corona . octane . mantalray . maxwell render. but the aweseome kray no one hear about it . and he cant even put it in the challenging theirs engine . cause u dont have full shaders . lightwave limitation . ex... glass useless . sSs we dont have wich is basic thing in rendering . kray cant simulate it . ggx we dont have . janusz told me speculary i dont use itold technilogy but : look other engine competitor they use thos things . ggx ex.... they are leadership in film and vfx ex..... . thank u again .

[jonathlee]

As a noob user, I understand the pain you're going through. Many other render out there are performing pretty out-standing. Octane, Vray and few others appeared to be leading with many features. They are very great and easily able to achieve such a realistic renders. Because they have a very active community who willing to share their resources such as settings, shaders, textures and many others.

Lightwave and Kray still limited within a small community (in my opinion). It's very hard to find good tutorials, some shaders not work well with Kray and etc. In order to user Kray to get good results you have to go through a steep learning curve. Thus this is hard for new user to get good results in shorter time.

Octane, Vray = Need better hardware, expensive. But full with good resources
Kray = Medium-High hardware, affordable. Lack of good resource

I willing to wait for Kray 3, but I also hope it will be bundling realistic shaders and nodes for us to easily get results without the needs to adjust / fake the setting to look realistic.

MUST HAVE
Micro-Displacement, bucket renderer, easier fabric textures, EXR, easier shaders

As a small community, we either grow together or we remain silent with selfish improvement...

[thomas]

I'm bored with this discussion, so I'm out. Better to work than to whine about things.

Jonathlee, I think you have a very good point.

[Janusz Biela]

Anyway I stick with Kray+LW. I like it, I loved it, I am an individualist, I do not go where everybody goes. Life is to short to waste time with Path Tracing in my case.

Most people has i7 CPU or basic GPU and this means: forbidden PT land.
Over 95% people use Final Gathering. Also Tendency is now to get fast render with low/medium quality. Growing very fast huge community of Google Sketchup, Podium Render, etc.
People do no want learn too deep and for them average quality is enough (do not mention clients).
If somebody wants high quality:
- buy render farm
- buy Z-brush
- buy Arnold, Maxwell
- make high budget projects

[Fabian-Eshloraque]

Hi Guys,

Saw your discussion. We do film, commerials, archiviz etc. We use whatever tool that is available. I mean, Zbrush, photoshop, lightwave, maya, arnold, renderman, kray, lightwave native, vray, renderfarm, nuke, fusion etc. But NO GPU. Its cool for VPR and that stuff and thats it. Lightwave and kray do the job, again and again. I did 20 minutes feature film setextensions with render times around 12 to 50 minutes for 2K. Whenever I talk about shaders and all that technical stuff, then this is our inhouse response:

9x1IQQ8.jpg (67.27 KiB) Viewed 6718 times

And for the last time, you don need openEXR! An openEXR is a layered HDRI, so HDRI is good enough. If you give a layered openEXR to a compositor and 1 pass of for example 50 is wrong, what will you do? Render again? Fuck up the deadline?

I agree with Thomas, Janusz and Jonathlee. I want to help people fix problems and help to improve their skills. But lets be honest have you ever worked with Arnold? Do you think that Vray is the best? Ever tried to render something on a renderfarm with that software? Ever tried fur? There are always work arounds in production, thats normal. A least you have a free community helping you.

Best,

[thomas]

All in all, I would love to take part in a very positive approach where we promote LW and Kray a bit. How about you guys? Maybe make a decent tutorial portal of sorts?

[Keraressi Abdelkarim]

But lets be honest have you ever worked with Arnold? Do you think that Vray is the best? Ever tried to render something on a renderfarm with that software? Ever tried fur? There are always work arounds in production, thats normal. A least you have a free community helping you.

Best,

arlond good for vfx ex.. not for archiviz arnold tooo slow engine render.

for me vray vs arlond : vray win. cause vray can use in "archiviz and in vfx" and above them the best of them all its kray render . kray is best engine on earth face. i cant wait to see kray3 come like new baby born. i know it will bring new render quality in the whole industry . kray rocks .

[Fabian-Eshloraque]

Yes, we have the same conclusion like you.

Arnold is used much in an environment were artist do not want to know their render engine. Or when the studio does not want to have expensive render TD's on the payroll. It is a specular render engine, not build for interior scenes with heavy secondary bouncing. Its also an old renderengine, it came out before fprime (which is the same kind of renderengine)

Thats why like you say, bad for interior scenes. There are many issue's with Arnold, the biggest is a complete lack of a free community. Layered textures is also issue, LEM materials, etc... I did Yeti fur with Arnold and it looks too uniform. Vray is lots better and easier!

I like renderman, but its just too heavy to render. You can consider renderman RIS like Vray and renderman REYES like Arnold. But I love kray and kray can do the same.

But as a token of my help I will post all of our shaders and lighting setups on this forum. Most are build with the assistance of Janusz. Just let me check with him if its okay to post this. I agree with Thomas to put up a better tutorial system, but I guess we need to help from Janusz for this and we need a plan for this.

Best!

[thomas]

Hi Fabian,

That's good to hear! Thanks! I think if we can set up a wordpress thingy somewhere and get some people on board to share resources and each do a monthly "tutorial" we could cook up something that could get LW + Kray get some more recognition out there!

[ideart]

Better tutorials system is something that will attract new users but right now I don't think lack of tutorials is the biggest issue with Kray.
We are in 2016 and we don't have fur neither proper displacement, or shaders and we have to dive to complex nodes and many many test renders to achieve better materials. Adding the animation bugs and crushes all of these hurt productivity and they are stealing thunder from the render speed of Kray.
I know that all of these features are planned for K3 but I have recently bumped into a Janusz "you must wait for K3.0. Do not worry , will be soon" response from 2013.

[jonathlee]

Yes yes yes, another initiative we should share to grow the community.

I have WordPress experience, let me know how can I help.

[thomas]

Hi all,

I think - especially with the new compound node - that we should be able to shield users from overly complex things going on behind the scenes. And with good materials, you don't need to do that much re-renders (although I can assure you that the render process with MAX and V-ray is just the same: render something, tweak a surface, re-render, tweak a light setup, re-render etc...).

On the whole, I think it would be a good idea to have an Arch-Viz (and by extension: general Kray rendering) blog, that presents things in a more easy and attractive way. Yes, we have the forum, and teeny tiny thumbnails, and Janusz helping out a lot, but I think that a sort of blog with regular posts, shared scenes, objects and materials, and big, shiny beautyshot images would be very cool, and convince people to move to LW + Kray (and potentially lwCAD)

Oh, and also a big shiny button at the top that compares the "special deal" price of LW + Kray to MAX and V-ray

[Jarda_viz]

Hi all,
I vote to use more presets Janusz created some time ago and try to improve them. It is really great source of information and it covers 80% of all materials. I know there are some materials which are very difficult or even impossible to simulate without proper shaders.

It would be good to create standard scene for material testing with good interior lighting and share modified material here at KRay forum.

[Janusz Biela]

These all Nodes are quite old with ideas but I do not release my new one because I wait for G. answer. He add now new Anti-Aliasing, Final Gathering and sampling importance for photons + fix bugs in K3. After that I will ask him about this whole surface system and schedule for shaders.

What I did in last 2 years:
- static recurse - now all surfaces has 5 recurse
- surfaces without texture has auto diffuse from Fresnel (plastic, ceramic) reducing in this way bad edge ring
- Fresnel has correction Ring (This ring is called: Fresnel Ring) this bad annoying physical effect is reduced by curve Node in auto mode
- diffuse is still manual because is impossible "guess" by software what real level of Albedo is for material. For example grass leaf has very low Albedo (around 0.2-0.3) because of light absorption (SSS) and if I will put auto mode I will get 50-60% and this will be too high. But this setup is done manually everywhere. I made in Node list of popular materials but after a couple of days I just remembered them and I do it now still manually.
- Fresnel has no injection of reflection - now is mixed in mixer with reflection texture.
- now reflection texture must have maximum Luma level at 90-100% so is easy because Fresnel is parameter of reflection which determinate total reflection of surface
- Normal Map has join mixer for others bump. Very often I join 2 or even 3 maps.
- All surfaces with texture has diffuse texture - this is necessary because in render surface lost contrast and looks bad.
- glass has now special curves for transparency and color filter. Data from Fresnel gives bad effect
- all pre-processing I do by Simple Colour Correcton Node because it has all transformation include gamma (very important for diffuse control)
- I do not use specular
- I do not use third part Nodes - ONLY Newtek because of 100% compatibility with Kray (except of course some LW shaders) no problem on render farms.
- the biggest improvement is with pre-processing system: this is really key for good surfacing
- I made full auto basic velvet shader (still testing) Maybe soon will show some
renders of that
- bump has Drop Off which reduce bad Moiré effect
- many small updates

Here is how it works without preview rendering (I setup Nodes, press button render without any test renders):