interior render Wip

[nico]

ehi were is the scene?!?!?!?

[Keraressi Abdelkarim]

nico i will poste new scn good for test and for realisime .

just wait pls .

[Janusz Biela]

Here my first serious shoot from this scene. Nodes High Level difficulty (but it doesn`t mean crazy - all according to physic). Time render 3 min in QMC (Dual Xeon).

[Janusz Biela]

erkerk I got small free time and I updated your scene by my Nodes (around 75% of all)
I hope you like it. It is really neat scene for testing

[erkerk]

Janusz, it's looks perfect
I like light from left side, wall and pillows.

[Janusz Biela]

Last update with all Surfaces with Nodes (almost).Time render 20 min Dual Xeon. Thanks again for share scene

[Janusz Biela]

There are some places in this scene good for explore and tests of surfaces. Floor tiles are created from texture - this is no real, wire 3D.

[bdurgun]

awesome

[nico]

Janusz!!! PERFECTTTTTT

[S0nny]

Incredible result!
Janusz, what do you mean by nodes according to physics? I mean, I know about energy conservation etc, but how do you find the right curve for gradients/fresnel and others, is it all 'by observation' or you got some real references?

edit: grammar

[Janusz Biela]

Incredible result!
Janusz, what do you mean by nodes according to physics? I mean, I know about energy conservation etc, but how do you find the right curve for gradients/fresnel and others, is it all 'by observation' or you got some real references?

edit: grammar

Well, I do not use gradients - only fresnel, all materials has it. Also I watch many renders from Maxwell because this render engine is very accurate (of course is too much overrated with physic - is not necessary use that strong physic in renders!...and too slow to do something with sense)
SO I try keep diffuse connected with reflection, no specular, no OCC, no bump map (only normal maps from nodes transformed from grey scale map), no exponential in tone map, no extra lights from ceilings - if it is possible, no strong lights from outside in interiors, best quality textures, perfect GI, perfect AA, good post process, perfect DoF.
I very important to observe surfaces and light in real World.
From my experience doesn`t exist ready solution for surfaces - all, the best artist has it`s own system of surfacing and system that you will not find in web (this what you can find or buy are just basic stuff)
Also I do not believe magic software with fast renders - doesn`t exist. If you want ultra quality it`s must take long time render and a lot work + huge experience.

[S0nny]

Well, I do not use gradients - only fresnel, all materials has it. Also I watch many renders from Maxwell because this render engine is very accurate (of course is too much overrated with physic - is not necessary use that strong physic in renders!...and too slow to do something with sense)
SO I try keep diffuse connected with reflection, no specular, no OCC, no bump map (only normal maps from nodes transformed from grey scale map), no exponential in tone map, no extra lights from ceilings - if it is possible, no strong lights from outside in interiors, best quality textures, perfect GI, perfect AA, good post process, perfect DoF.
I very important to observe surfaces and light in real World.
From my experience doesn`t exist ready solution for surfaces - all, the best artist has it`s own system of surfacing and system that you will not find in web (this what you can find or buy are just basic stuff)
Also I do not believe magic software with fast renders - doesn`t exist. If you want ultra quality it`s must take long time render and a lot work + huge experience.

Thank you Janusz, you are always really helpful.
Actually I'm really experienced with the default GI lightwave engine, I've got the Kray demo to try if (and how) it fits in my workflow.
I know about spec 0%, ies lights and various basic tips to get the right material, I'm trying to understand if the materal with the default lightwave engine behave in the same way as in Kray engine.

What I find interesting about your settings is how you get the correct physical data (or better, the correct approximation): do you use some raw data or is always about observation?
In example, when I use the fresnel node, or the dp_fresnel, since they are based on IOR, I'm using a real world value for the material, and play with the right amount of blur and other tweaks to recreate a sort of custom fresnel curve (if it looks good to me is 'ok'). Sometimes the fresnel alone needs some improvements, so I use some modificators to control how fresnel behaves.
The point is, continuing my example, if I compare the lightwave material editor with Maxwell render editor, I can't really use the IOR in the same way, because I need to relate Nd and K, and I can't do that without a complete 'maxwell like' editor (or can I?).
So, how do you manage to tweak fresnel to get this physical accuracy? Ok, fresnel is just an example, but I'm really curious, because I saw in November a thread in which you talked about fresnel 20 for metals, 3-5 for shiny surface and under 3 for wood etc. So I suppose the fresnel node in lightwave doesn't work with real world values? I mean, I don't ask you a node graph, I understand that is your strictly personal work, just some more specific tips
Thanks!

[Janusz Biela]

ok let`s start from basic surface.
Here basic plastic surface with physical accuracy (of course this is only simulation - real stuff you have in Maxwell)

from left side:
- fresnel 2.0 value of reflection (1.0 means no reflection). It is logarithmic value - 4.0 doesn`t mean twice more reflection then 2.0. I use metal up to 15. Is not good value because from my test 50 make pure metal (diffuse is almost zero)...but I use 15, it seams from ok in renders. Value 5 has strong reflection - to test it simple render basic test scene under LW VPR.
- Spot Info is used for limit recurse in reflection. Generally I use 3.0 but if you will have mirror opposite mirror then you will see error in raytracing: missing reflection. Most of the surfaces has soft reflection and after 2-3 recurse effect is not visible but it can speed time render. Best solution for bathroom reflected walls.
- Subtract (value 1.0 means 100% diffuse) takes information from reflection and reduce automatically diffuse according to Fresnel value. So if Fresnel is 1.0 (no reflection) surface will have 100% diffuse. If Fresnel is 15 or more (metal) then diffuse of material will be almost zero. Of course we must remember about colours (luma information in this case) then more darker color then diffuse is smaller. total dark colour has 0% diffuse so photons doesn`t reflect from this surface. I keep 100% diffuse for all surfaces (I do not control brightness of surfaces as many does. Kray control by itself diffuse according to the colour) also Subtract Node reduce diffuse if material has reflection. Another word: full auto. What you need in Node is only changing reflection according to your needs - it can not be easier, one parameter to control.
- clamps is correction tool. It can happen when something went wrong with ray tracing and some surfaces behave wrongly with reflection or diffuse. I use this always especially when I use shaders in Nodes. Some of them are not supported by Kray or they are just coded with bugs and they can make problems in scene (Hot pixels or white, strong splotches) It`s keep reflection/diffuse between 0% and 100%.
- Normalize is Node which transform all textures to Normal Map. I do not use bump map channel because is too primitive for bump. So I do not waste time for create special normal map - I put there texture. In this Node bump for plastic. It is visible when you have cabinets in kitchen (in real they are not flat!) It is maybe small detail but human eye catch all artificial surfaces especially flat surfaces.
- Logic has information about recurse amount. It can not be use for glass.

Of course this is basic simulation - is not necessary to make it complicate as in Maxwell system. Apparently, this is the most important information, Kray has incredible good light transport system. Using minimum 10 REAL bounce lights (recurse 10) you get very good photon map (many software has limits for that because speed of render for Kray is doesn`t matter 10 or 20. Maximum for Kray is 1000)
In my opinion rendering with 3-5 recurse is not good. Lightwave users reduce strongly recurse because of speed render and this make artificial renders (close to pure old ray tracing). Also in Octane recurse is very strong reduced (2-3 bounce lights) and this made horrible effect especially when Octane render is supported by Occlusion. Nobody render in Octane with high recurse because it will take years to render scene (interiors scenes) even with good GFX cards.

[S0nny]

ok let`s start from basic surface. (cut)

Well, that's REALLY interesting.
In my experience I always thought that the fresnel node in lw requires a real IOR value, i.e. like based on this reference http://refractiveindex.info/?group=META ... ial=Copper I tried many times to re-create the angle of incidence graph with a curve in nodes, (reverse for diffuse) or tweak the fresnel to achieve a similar result.
More often, when in hurry or my client want just fast and not so good renders I just use the fake IOR for cgi value, like i.e. aluminum 1.44, copper 2.40 using the Conductor Node, or just basic gradients for fabrics, without much satisfaction, of course.
What I don't understand is the 'unit' used as value for the fresnel in lw or dp_fresnel, (2 what? 30 what? based on a scale from 1 to what?) and what kind of curve represent, and how I can use effectivly to reproduce the right curve. Anyway, your node makes me even more curious, I'll give a try tomorrow (it's time to go to bed now ) and I will report some impressions.

About kray, yes, I read here many times about its speed, blurry reflections and quality. At the moment I tried the demo with a very big project I'm on, just to try the stability and speed, but it crashes every time I try to enable the Tonemap blend plugin, I don't know why.
Maybe the project is too chaotic, this is a screenshot just to give an idea, I'll try with some basic/test scene.
Goodnight

[Janusz Biela]

Well, that's REALLY interesting.
In my experience I always thought that the fresnel node in lw requires a real IOR value, i.e. like based on this reference http://refractiveindex.info/?group=META ... ial=Copper I tried many times to re-create the angle of incidence graph with a curve in nodes, (reverse for diffuse) or tweak the fresnel to achieve a similar result.
More often, when in hurry or my client want just fast and not so good renders I just use the fake IOR for cgi value, like i.e. aluminum 1.44, copper 2.40 using the Conductor Node, or just basic gradients for fabrics, without much satisfaction, of course.
What I don't understand is the 'unit' used as value for the fresnel in lw or dp_fresnel, (2 what? 30 what? based on a scale from 1 to what?) and what kind of curve represent, and how I can use effectivly to reproduce the right curve. Anyway, your node makes me even more curious, I'll give a try tomorrow (it's time to go to bed now ) and I will report some impressions.

Well Lightwave and Kray are not physical renders - You can not use real physic references because doesn`t exist system in Lightwave which offer that setup.
I use my eyes for Fresnel and experience with surfacing. The values from 1.0 to 20.0 are just interpolated values from real world and has nothing to real physic chart.
From my tests:
1.0 no reflection
1.1-1.6 soft reflection (most materials)
1.7-2.0 still soft reflection but visible (most materials: floor, plastic)
2.1-3.0 stronger reflection - still soft (floor, marble, cabinets)
3.1-5.0 strong reflection - but still no metal (leather, medium reflected surfaces, marble)
5.1- 8.0 very strong reflection but still no metal (Very rare to use)
8.1-20.0 metallic surfaces
Because I use this non stop it this just matter of seconds to setup for me material without rendering (but this is normal when you use non stop same system - you just get use of it)

About kray, yes, I read here many times about its speed, blurry reflections and quality. At the moment I tried the demo with a very big project I'm on, just to try the stability and speed, but it crashes every time I try to enable the Tonemap blend plugin, I don't know why.
Maybe the project is too chaotic, this is a screenshot just to give an idea, I'll try with some basic/test scene.
Goodnight

It can be everything:
- Vertex map in surface set up
- Not supported Node (it is very rare, most problems just render with bad effect)
If still is problem send me scene: janusz.biela@gmail.com
I do not use demo but should be differences between full version and demo version. Kray has almost 100% stability (apparently I can not crash it since half year)

In attachment my most common tone map.
Remember in Lightwave must be all in Linear mode in Kray General also Linear before when use blending Kray system.