Default shader to use

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Fabian-Eshloraque
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Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Default shader to use

Postby Fabian-Eshloraque » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:44 pm

Hi Guys,

Shader for you:
Starter_production_Vs006.srf
(75.97 KiB) Downloaded 105 times


I updated our standard shader with following parts:

1. Specular system (if you really want the software lights to be visible in the shading, otherwise switch to Lumie polies/lights)
a. you can disable specular
b. put settings for specular and gloss
c. choose between oren-nayar or blinn
d. add the bump to calculation specular

2. Reflection: Choose between rough (bumps go to fresnel etc) or clearcoat (no bump effect on gloss)
a. dirty fresnel
b. scale of dirty fresnel size
c. set bump effect with fallof
d. input IOR value
e. amount of bounces for speedup render

3. Diffuse: Choose between standard LW shading model (for smooth surfaces) or Oren-Nayar
a. choose albedo value (manually input)
b. add value to albedo if needed (setting of 1.33 makes the albedo at 100% diffuse setting, so dont go higher)

4. Extra bump input channel
a. with plastic bump effect allready in place
b. 3 extra open vector input free

What I can do but did not, is to use the users amount of bump to define the amount of oren-nayar. But I leave this up to the artist to choose.

Let me know how it goes,

Grtz Fabian

Fabian-Eshloraque
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Default shader to use

Postby Fabian-Eshloraque » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:29 pm

Little adjustment to the bump. (curve input was wrong)
Starter_production_Vs006.srf
(75.97 KiB) Downloaded 128 times

Fabian-Eshloraque
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Default shader to use

Postby Fabian-Eshloraque » Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:15 pm

A small rendertest:

Lightwave native: (6minutes render, AA at 30passes)
LW_native.jpg


Kray: (12minutes render, medium quality)
Kray.jpg


Except for the size of the lights, they look the same. I need to investigate why kray render is longer... maybe because of some shading models.

Heres the scene and everything to check for yourselves. I used an area light and a spherical light:
shading.rar
(389.36 KiB) Downloaded 106 times


Grtz

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Janusz Biela
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby Janusz Biela » Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:02 pm

Not supported Nodes - forget. Speed render is around 10 times slower then usually...

S0nny
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby S0nny » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:37 am

Fabian-Eshloraque wrote:A small rendertest:
Except for the size of the lights, they look the same. I need to investigate why kray render is longer... maybe because of some shading models.


Hi Fabian,
I'm looking at your scene, I have some observations.
I don't know if this settings are fair for comparison between lw and kray, the scene has to be optimized: in lw engine for example I can easily cut rendertimes by 80% and more, even using montecarlo and not final gather, preserving 100% quality. So probably is the same for kray, but I'm not the expert in kray world.
About the shaders, I see a strange behaviour when change from standard to oren-nayar: oren-nayar is a diffuse model, so it shouldn't change the specular lobe like it does.
When I have time I'll look at the shader, but reversing the other's work is always a bit complicated.

One more question, just out of curiosity, is there a reason you choose rec709 cs over srgb?

edit: I've noticed also the lights are incorrect, they'd be inv. distance sqr.

Fabian-Eshloraque
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby Fabian-Eshloraque » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:44 pm

Hi SOnny,

Yes, the scenes are not optimised. Just putted some high settings to start with. I guess that the longer rendertime comes from the "not-supported nodes" they render in kray, just longer. For the change between standard to oren-nayar, I have to check. Cause I only used the standard material for making the standard and delta for the oren-nayar.

The rec709 is what I always use. Been doing a lot of tv work, so its kind of a habit. Srgb is almost the same, bit less contrast, but you know this.

Lights are now/or should be inverse distance, going to inverse distance ^2 makes render errors - bright pixels and banding.

The only interesting thing for you is that the specular (reflection of spotlights or sun) in my system is being piped on the color channel. I only could do it with blinn/pong/iso shader, maybe find another sollution for these specular shaders.

S0nny
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:03 am

Re: Default shader to use

Postby S0nny » Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:31 pm

Fabian-Eshloraque wrote:Hi SOnny,

Yes, the scenes are not optimised. Just putted some high settings to start with. I guess that the longer rendertime comes from the "not-supported nodes" they render in kray, just longer. For the change between standard to oren-nayar, I have to check. Cause I only used the standard material for making the standard and delta for the oren-nayar.

The rec709 is what I always use. Been doing a lot of tv work, so its kind of a habit. Srgb is almost the same, bit less contrast, but you know this.

Lights are now/or should be inverse distance, going to inverse distance ^2 makes render errors - bright pixels and banding.

The only interesting thing for you is that the specular (reflection of spotlights or sun) in my system is being piped on the color channel. I only could do it with blinn/pong/iso shader, maybe find another sollution for these specular shaders.


Ok I've done a really fast test here using my shaders and just some optimization of the scene. It's a bit conservative on some settings, but I just wanted to cut the rendertime.
I don't know why you get bright pixels and banding, as you can see the scene comes out pretty clean (remember, I'm talking lw native) with a very low aa,

test_lw_native_mod.jpg


It takes 51 seconds on my 4 years old 4.3ghz 6c/12t workstation, my other render machine can probably do it in less than 15 secs.
To my eyes t's much similar to your kray render than the lw one. It has a better AA than kray, but it loses some small details (but differences can came also from the engine, the shaders settings etc). It also catches the other side/front light, as you can see in the wood sphere, which is more correct in my opinion. Anyway I need time to test more, I'll try later. Maybe Janusz can do some optimization for kray, but I'm thinking that probably we need a much complex scene to see the difference, and if the shaders are correct.

For srgb vs rec709 I was asking because I prefer the washed out look of the srgb because it gives me more control over tone mapping, but I do 90% stills.

edit: typos and grammar

Fabian-Eshloraque
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Default shader to use

Postby Fabian-Eshloraque » Thu Apr 14, 2016 3:21 pm

Hi SOnny,

We better stop this thread, because we are using a lot of 3th party nodes (TruArt, db&w, etc) and nodes that are not supported by kray. I wanted to make a kray start material and this is evolving into a LW native start shader, unless Janusz steps in.

PS: I tested the inv dist^2 and looks better indeed.
PPS: the compositing guys want to have everything in the rec709 colorspace, while the photoshop guy wants sRGB, I just switch when needed. Its not really important, as long as you know which one you used when render is done.

S0nny
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby S0nny » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:19 am

You are right Fabian, it's going off topic. Anyway if a comparison is required for some reason I can provide some test.

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djwaterman
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby djwaterman » Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:31 pm

S0nny wrote:Hi guys, sorry for the delay, I was a bit busy.
Here in attach one of my standard node with a base coating. There are some missing input like bump falloff or bump mask but this are really simple to do, you can choose your best technique and add it to the node.

As you can see it seems complicated but really it's not, what I did it's just copy here and there and create something usefull for me.
I also watched many vray and other software tutorials, and I tried to translate some of the techniques to lw.
This as an attempt to create a sort layered material, which in lw is not really always desirable because as Janusz and others already said, it comes with some problems.
In this case, since this nodes are designed for the standard lw engine, the only problem I find is an increased render time when materials are mixed with masks with low contrast (I mean many greys, so the reflection is really layered and not masked out).
Otherwise the single node is really really fast and rock solid, I've never experienced a crash in vpr or F9/10 rendering, with or without extra buffers and stuff. Maybe there is some redundancy in cache but I find it ok.

I'd be really glad if someone will find a way to improve or fix this nodes if something is wrong in the behaviour of the network. I'll probably share with the lw community because they probably find more benefit there, but you never know.



Did you attach the node set up?

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promity
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby promity » Mon May 30, 2016 7:47 am

djwaterman wrote:
S0nny wrote:Hi guys, sorry for the delay, I was a bit busy.
Here in attach one of my standard node with a base coating. There are some missing input like bump falloff or bump mask but this are really simple to do, you can choose your best technique and add it to the node.

As you can see it seems complicated but really it's not, what I did it's just copy here and there and create something usefull for me.
I also watched many vray and other software tutorials, and I tried to translate some of the techniques to lw.
This as an attempt to create a sort layered material, which in lw is not really always desirable because as Janusz and others already said, it comes with some problems.
In this case, since this nodes are designed for the standard lw engine, the only problem I find is an increased render time when materials are mixed with masks with low contrast (I mean many greys, so the reflection is really layered and not masked out).
Otherwise the single node is really really fast and rock solid, I've never experienced a crash in vpr or F9/10 rendering, with or without extra buffers and stuff. Maybe there is some redundancy in cache but I find it ok.

I'd be really glad if someone will find a way to improve or fix this nodes if something is wrong in the behaviour of the network. I'll probably share with the lw community because they probably find more benefit there, but you never know.



Did you attach the node set up?


Perhaps it was send by privat order (

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Janusz Biela
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby Janusz Biela » Mon May 30, 2016 10:50 am

Be careful withe these LW shaders: all does`t not work or only partly works or slow render.

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promity
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby promity » Mon May 30, 2016 11:10 am

Janusz Biela wrote:Be careful withe these LW shaders: all does`t not work or only partly works or slow render.

How will look new shaders for K3 - based on combinations of legal LW nodes or it will be completely independent nodes?

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Janusz Biela
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Re: Default shader to use

Postby Janusz Biela » Mon May 30, 2016 12:41 pm

It must be independent in override system. It means when you will choose KrayShader plugin in LW surface interface the effect will be straight from Kray (like now Area Light in LW when K3 needs only size, position and colour from layout and the rest is done by K3 Core)
With surfaces is a bit different because we can not override completely whole LW system (what about nodes?) so perhaps it will be hybrid: some surfaces will override completely LW system (for example glass - it must be done completely in KrayCore) some surfaces will override only some extra effects (add): velvet, ceramic (double reflection will be done in shader but fresnel and textures in Nodes).
I do not know details about SDK LW: how much deep G. can achieve parameters in LW.


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